Government lawyers have hampered investigations into waste and fraud at the Homeland Security Department, officials told Congress on Tuesday.
The head of the Government Accountability Office, the nonpartisan investigative arm of the Congress, and the department's own inspector general said Homeland Security officials, particularly lawyers in the general counsel's office, had delayed probes and demanded inappropriate access to interviews with employees. There was no suggestion of criminality.
Homeland Security Department spokesman Russ Knocke denied the allegations, terming them inaccurate and unfair. He said there are many times that investigators from both offices have interviewed employees without attorneys present and that the general counsel's office is involved only when sensitive information is discussed.
Both investigators told a House subcommittee that numerous inquiries into waste, abuse or management problems had been delayed.
"They're not very responsive. They don't give information quickly," said David Walker, head of the GAO.
"Every document we seek to review has to be reviewed (first) by the general counsel's office," Walker added. He said the department's general counsel wants to "sit in on every interview," which he deemed inappropriate.
Walker said when there are more lawyers than other staff involved, "you've got problems."
"I agree wholeheartedly," said Inspector General Richard Skinner. "It's not a denial of information, but it's very cumbersome to obtain information."
Skinner also said that having a supervisor or attorney present when his office interviews an employee "sets a chilling effect" and tells the employee he's presumed not to be a team player.
Until his resignation last month, the general counsel was Phil Perry, son-in-law of Vice President Dick Cheney.
Walker and Skinner told the House subcommittee that "the tone is set from the top" and that Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff himself needs to address the situation.
"You can be assured that we're hearing you loud and clear," replied the panel's chairman, Rep. David Price, D-N.C. Chertoff is due on Thursday to make his first appearance before the subcommittee since Democrats took control of Congress.
Skinner also complained that he had asked department leaders to send a message to all employees explaining what his office does, and how to contact it. He said the draft letter had been "sitting in the general counsel's office" since last summer.
Knocke said the inspector general has an informative and detailed page on the department's intranet Web page that is available to all employees. Knocke said that is the usual mechanism for communicating with nearly 200,000 employees scattered around the world.
However, Knocke acknowledged that a recent "all hands" message was sent as a letter to all employees by Deputy Secretary Michael Jackson. The Associated Press reported last week that a survey found Homeland Security employees ranking last in job satisfaction of 36 federal agencies. Jackson wrote it was a "clear and jolting message" that department leadership was taking seriously.
That survey also came up at Tuesday's hearing, with Rep. Jose Serrano, D-N.Y., questioning the two watchdogs on whether such bad morale could have an impact on national security.
Skinner said some morale problems stem from combining 22 disparate agencies when the department was created in 2003. For example, the new agencies born from the old Customs and Immigration agencies have suffered from "very, very severe competition, jealousies, cultural differences, inability to get along with one another, inability or refusal to share information."
The panel also explored management failings recently revealed about two enormous long-term contracts the department has put in the hands of private companies.
The Coast Guard's Deepwater program was severely criticized by Skinner last month. The $24 billion, 25-year program to modernize the agency's fleet is being run by a joint venture of two defense contractors, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.
Skinner said he had recently spoken with Coast Guard Commandant Thad Allen, who Skinner said has taken the critique seriously and has reorganized his staff, named a new assistant commandant to oversee the program and rewrite the contract. Skinner quoted Allen as saying he would "put the Coast Guard back in the driver's seat."
There has also been criticism of the new border security program, the Secure Border Initiative, that Skinner has estimated could end up costing between $8 billion and $25 billion.
Walker noted that department officials had learned from their Deepwater problems and are moving more cautiously on the program, which covers both physical fencing and beefing up cameras, sensors and other technology on the border, and have been allocating funds for only small portions at a time.
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